What do hard-Brexiteers want with respect to the Irish border?












41















Hard-Brexiteers would like the UK to have a "clean break" with the EU, and in particular they don't want any part of the UK to stay even temporarily in the customs union (the so-called backstop).



This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. It seems that the options "the UK leaves the customs union" and "the Good Friday Agreement is upheld" are mutually exclusive.



As far as I'm aware, the only idea that some hard-Brexiteers have proposed to solve this contradiction is a soft border using "seamless technology". Even assuming that such a technological option is feasible for the trade of goods, wouldn't that leave a backdoor wide open for illegal immigration from the EU to the UK? If yes, are hard-Brexiteers ok with that? Alternatively, are there any hard-Brexiteers who support a hard border?



To summarize, what do hard-Brexiteers see as the ideal outcome for the Irish border in the long term?










share|improve this question























  • Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

    – Philipp
    16 hours ago






  • 1





    The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

    – phoog
    9 hours ago
















41















Hard-Brexiteers would like the UK to have a "clean break" with the EU, and in particular they don't want any part of the UK to stay even temporarily in the customs union (the so-called backstop).



This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. It seems that the options "the UK leaves the customs union" and "the Good Friday Agreement is upheld" are mutually exclusive.



As far as I'm aware, the only idea that some hard-Brexiteers have proposed to solve this contradiction is a soft border using "seamless technology". Even assuming that such a technological option is feasible for the trade of goods, wouldn't that leave a backdoor wide open for illegal immigration from the EU to the UK? If yes, are hard-Brexiteers ok with that? Alternatively, are there any hard-Brexiteers who support a hard border?



To summarize, what do hard-Brexiteers see as the ideal outcome for the Irish border in the long term?










share|improve this question























  • Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

    – Philipp
    16 hours ago






  • 1





    The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

    – phoog
    9 hours ago














41












41








41


4






Hard-Brexiteers would like the UK to have a "clean break" with the EU, and in particular they don't want any part of the UK to stay even temporarily in the customs union (the so-called backstop).



This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. It seems that the options "the UK leaves the customs union" and "the Good Friday Agreement is upheld" are mutually exclusive.



As far as I'm aware, the only idea that some hard-Brexiteers have proposed to solve this contradiction is a soft border using "seamless technology". Even assuming that such a technological option is feasible for the trade of goods, wouldn't that leave a backdoor wide open for illegal immigration from the EU to the UK? If yes, are hard-Brexiteers ok with that? Alternatively, are there any hard-Brexiteers who support a hard border?



To summarize, what do hard-Brexiteers see as the ideal outcome for the Irish border in the long term?










share|improve this question














Hard-Brexiteers would like the UK to have a "clean break" with the EU, and in particular they don't want any part of the UK to stay even temporarily in the customs union (the so-called backstop).



This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement. It seems that the options "the UK leaves the customs union" and "the Good Friday Agreement is upheld" are mutually exclusive.



As far as I'm aware, the only idea that some hard-Brexiteers have proposed to solve this contradiction is a soft border using "seamless technology". Even assuming that such a technological option is feasible for the trade of goods, wouldn't that leave a backdoor wide open for illegal immigration from the EU to the UK? If yes, are hard-Brexiteers ok with that? Alternatively, are there any hard-Brexiteers who support a hard border?



To summarize, what do hard-Brexiteers see as the ideal outcome for the Irish border in the long term?







united-kingdom brexit northern-ireland republic-of-ireland good-friday-agreement






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked yesterday









ErwanErwan

2,856723




2,856723













  • Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

    – Philipp
    16 hours ago






  • 1





    The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

    – phoog
    9 hours ago



















  • Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

    – Philipp
    16 hours ago






  • 1





    The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

    – phoog
    9 hours ago

















Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

– Philipp
16 hours ago





Comments deleted. Comments should be used to discuss the phrasing of the question, not to debate its subject matter. For more information about what comments should or should not be used for, please review the help article about the commenting privilege.

– Philipp
16 hours ago




1




1





The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

– phoog
9 hours ago





The only answer to the question linked under "breach the Good Friday Agreement" appears to conclude that the GFA does not require an open border. Therefore the premise of this question appears to be incorrect.

– phoog
9 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















34














They tend to think it's somebody else's problem (Ireland's and/or the DUP's). Unless you are part of the DUP of course. See how Rees-Mogg has been punting the problem along the lines of: I agree with whatever the DUP agrees (or at least doesn't oppose) on Northern Ireland. And at the same time he says that in the case of no-deal Ireland would not dare to impose a hard border. Which is true to some extent.



The DUP has given a number of somewhat contradictory statements on this, over time. From the somewhat famous denial that a hard border ever existed to the more recent position(s) that they would prioritize staying in the EU over splitting Northern Ireland from the UK.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    @Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

    – Denis de Bernardy
    yesterday






  • 5





    The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

    – DJClayworth
    yesterday






  • 1





    The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

    – Chris Melville
    20 hours ago






  • 10





    FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

    – axsvl77
    19 hours ago






  • 3





    @ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

    – Paul Johnson
    14 hours ago





















21














The brexiteers don't really want anything regarding the Irish border. It's just a problem preventing them getting the hard brexit that they want, and since they don't have a real solution for it they just want to pretend it's not really a problem.



That's all it is, an annoying roadblock for them.






share|improve this answer



















  • 4





    Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday



















18














I'm a Remainer, but have been accused of being a Hard Brexiter on some stances in this debate, so I'll take a stab. The WTO, the Repubic of Ireland, and the EU have all recently made declarations and supporting statements that they have no intention of putting up border checks on any border between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They will instead impose checks at warehouses and other centers of of commerce. The UK is adamant that they will not impose any border check on any borders between ROI and NI (already been there and done that) and currently, through the HMRC, conduct such checks (for immigration and contraband) in Northern Ireland. So it seems that this issue is, perhap ironically, sorting itself out whether there is a 'hard' Brexit or not. The means by which such controls can be done are long established by many nations around the world:





  • US/Canada automobile industry and expanding to various other industries

  • Cigarettes in Northern Ireland

  • One of many of Trump's ICE raids:


  • UK Border Patrol raid in Cornwall. Sorry about the cookie request, but it is possible to read the article without agreeing to it.

  • This is one more tragic example from China. Pangolins. We will be lucky if these animals are still extant in a generation, and we don't deserve them anyway if they disappear.

  • You'll have to look yourself, but there are several episodes of Border Patrol UK where they are profiling and stopping people in train stations around the country. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though.


  • Russia destroys Western foods found outside of Moscow and Smolensk.


It will not be perfect. Nobody has a perfect system that I'm aware of. But it will suffice to control immigration and movement of goods to some extent and, most importantly, prevent any return of the Troubles.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

    – ouflak
    yesterday






  • 5





    @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

    – Rich
    yesterday






  • 2





    This is the best answer so far IMHO

    – marcello miorelli
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

    – marcello miorelli
    8 hours ago



















6














What the hard Brexiters want is for Ireland to leave the EU at the same time as the UK and negotiate a bilateral trade treaty on the UK's terms that keeps the border open. There is of course precisely zero chance of them getting it.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago



















0















This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement.




A 'hard' border would not breach the Good Friday Agreement. The full text of the text of the agreement contains no mentions of the status of the border at all.






share|improve this answer










New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 4





    This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

    – Alexei
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

    – Mike Scott
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

    – JJJ
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    @Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

    – padd13ear
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

    – DrMcCleod
    13 hours ago












protected by JJJ 8 hours ago



Thank you for your interest in this question.
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5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes








5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









34














They tend to think it's somebody else's problem (Ireland's and/or the DUP's). Unless you are part of the DUP of course. See how Rees-Mogg has been punting the problem along the lines of: I agree with whatever the DUP agrees (or at least doesn't oppose) on Northern Ireland. And at the same time he says that in the case of no-deal Ireland would not dare to impose a hard border. Which is true to some extent.



The DUP has given a number of somewhat contradictory statements on this, over time. From the somewhat famous denial that a hard border ever existed to the more recent position(s) that they would prioritize staying in the EU over splitting Northern Ireland from the UK.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    @Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

    – Denis de Bernardy
    yesterday






  • 5





    The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

    – DJClayworth
    yesterday






  • 1





    The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

    – Chris Melville
    20 hours ago






  • 10





    FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

    – axsvl77
    19 hours ago






  • 3





    @ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

    – Paul Johnson
    14 hours ago


















34














They tend to think it's somebody else's problem (Ireland's and/or the DUP's). Unless you are part of the DUP of course. See how Rees-Mogg has been punting the problem along the lines of: I agree with whatever the DUP agrees (or at least doesn't oppose) on Northern Ireland. And at the same time he says that in the case of no-deal Ireland would not dare to impose a hard border. Which is true to some extent.



The DUP has given a number of somewhat contradictory statements on this, over time. From the somewhat famous denial that a hard border ever existed to the more recent position(s) that they would prioritize staying in the EU over splitting Northern Ireland from the UK.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    @Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

    – Denis de Bernardy
    yesterday






  • 5





    The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

    – DJClayworth
    yesterday






  • 1





    The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

    – Chris Melville
    20 hours ago






  • 10





    FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

    – axsvl77
    19 hours ago






  • 3





    @ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

    – Paul Johnson
    14 hours ago
















34












34








34







They tend to think it's somebody else's problem (Ireland's and/or the DUP's). Unless you are part of the DUP of course. See how Rees-Mogg has been punting the problem along the lines of: I agree with whatever the DUP agrees (or at least doesn't oppose) on Northern Ireland. And at the same time he says that in the case of no-deal Ireland would not dare to impose a hard border. Which is true to some extent.



The DUP has given a number of somewhat contradictory statements on this, over time. From the somewhat famous denial that a hard border ever existed to the more recent position(s) that they would prioritize staying in the EU over splitting Northern Ireland from the UK.






share|improve this answer















They tend to think it's somebody else's problem (Ireland's and/or the DUP's). Unless you are part of the DUP of course. See how Rees-Mogg has been punting the problem along the lines of: I agree with whatever the DUP agrees (or at least doesn't oppose) on Northern Ireland. And at the same time he says that in the case of no-deal Ireland would not dare to impose a hard border. Which is true to some extent.



The DUP has given a number of somewhat contradictory statements on this, over time. From the somewhat famous denial that a hard border ever existed to the more recent position(s) that they would prioritize staying in the EU over splitting Northern Ireland from the UK.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 10 hours ago









terdon

281137




281137










answered yesterday









FizzFizz

14.6k23795




14.6k23795








  • 2





    @Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

    – Denis de Bernardy
    yesterday






  • 5





    The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

    – DJClayworth
    yesterday






  • 1





    The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

    – Chris Melville
    20 hours ago






  • 10





    FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

    – axsvl77
    19 hours ago






  • 3





    @ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

    – Paul Johnson
    14 hours ago
















  • 2





    @Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

    – Denis de Bernardy
    yesterday






  • 5





    The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

    – DJClayworth
    yesterday






  • 1





    The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

    – Chris Melville
    20 hours ago






  • 10





    FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

    – axsvl77
    19 hours ago






  • 3





    @ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

    – Paul Johnson
    14 hours ago










2




2





@Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

– Denis de Bernardy
yesterday





@Caleth: Source? For some reason, I get very very conflicting impressions...

– Denis de Bernardy
yesterday




5




5





The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

– DJClayworth
yesterday





The DUP would not be fine with that. Some of them would be OK with it ideologically, they know it would be a massively unpopular move for which they would get the blame.

– DJClayworth
yesterday




1




1





The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

– Chris Melville
20 hours ago





The Brexiters' stance is that the UK does not want a hard border, and Ireland does not want a hard border. Therefore there simply won't be a hard border. If the EU have a problem with it, then that's their problem. What are they going to do? Force Ireland to build a wall?

– Chris Melville
20 hours ago




10




10





FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

– axsvl77
19 hours ago





FYI DUP stands for the Democratic Unionist Party

– axsvl77
19 hours ago




3




3





@ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

– Paul Johnson
14 hours ago







@ChrisMelville AIUI the issue would be with the WTO rules, which say that you must have border controls unless you have a trade agreement saying you won't (i.e. a customs union with all that implies). Whether any brexiteer has actually addressed this issue is another question.

– Paul Johnson
14 hours ago













21














The brexiteers don't really want anything regarding the Irish border. It's just a problem preventing them getting the hard brexit that they want, and since they don't have a real solution for it they just want to pretend it's not really a problem.



That's all it is, an annoying roadblock for them.






share|improve this answer



















  • 4





    Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday
















21














The brexiteers don't really want anything regarding the Irish border. It's just a problem preventing them getting the hard brexit that they want, and since they don't have a real solution for it they just want to pretend it's not really a problem.



That's all it is, an annoying roadblock for them.






share|improve this answer



















  • 4





    Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday














21












21








21







The brexiteers don't really want anything regarding the Irish border. It's just a problem preventing them getting the hard brexit that they want, and since they don't have a real solution for it they just want to pretend it's not really a problem.



That's all it is, an annoying roadblock for them.






share|improve this answer













The brexiteers don't really want anything regarding the Irish border. It's just a problem preventing them getting the hard brexit that they want, and since they don't have a real solution for it they just want to pretend it's not really a problem.



That's all it is, an annoying roadblock for them.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









useruser

10.9k32543




10.9k32543








  • 4





    Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday














  • 4





    Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

    – Orangesandlemons
    yesterday








4




4





Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

– Orangesandlemons
yesterday





Disagree on this. DUP are brexiters and have strong opinions on the matter. Ironically probably would rather a soft border

– Orangesandlemons
yesterday











18














I'm a Remainer, but have been accused of being a Hard Brexiter on some stances in this debate, so I'll take a stab. The WTO, the Repubic of Ireland, and the EU have all recently made declarations and supporting statements that they have no intention of putting up border checks on any border between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They will instead impose checks at warehouses and other centers of of commerce. The UK is adamant that they will not impose any border check on any borders between ROI and NI (already been there and done that) and currently, through the HMRC, conduct such checks (for immigration and contraband) in Northern Ireland. So it seems that this issue is, perhap ironically, sorting itself out whether there is a 'hard' Brexit or not. The means by which such controls can be done are long established by many nations around the world:





  • US/Canada automobile industry and expanding to various other industries

  • Cigarettes in Northern Ireland

  • One of many of Trump's ICE raids:


  • UK Border Patrol raid in Cornwall. Sorry about the cookie request, but it is possible to read the article without agreeing to it.

  • This is one more tragic example from China. Pangolins. We will be lucky if these animals are still extant in a generation, and we don't deserve them anyway if they disappear.

  • You'll have to look yourself, but there are several episodes of Border Patrol UK where they are profiling and stopping people in train stations around the country. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though.


  • Russia destroys Western foods found outside of Moscow and Smolensk.


It will not be perfect. Nobody has a perfect system that I'm aware of. But it will suffice to control immigration and movement of goods to some extent and, most importantly, prevent any return of the Troubles.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

    – ouflak
    yesterday






  • 5





    @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

    – Rich
    yesterday






  • 2





    This is the best answer so far IMHO

    – marcello miorelli
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

    – marcello miorelli
    8 hours ago
















18














I'm a Remainer, but have been accused of being a Hard Brexiter on some stances in this debate, so I'll take a stab. The WTO, the Repubic of Ireland, and the EU have all recently made declarations and supporting statements that they have no intention of putting up border checks on any border between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They will instead impose checks at warehouses and other centers of of commerce. The UK is adamant that they will not impose any border check on any borders between ROI and NI (already been there and done that) and currently, through the HMRC, conduct such checks (for immigration and contraband) in Northern Ireland. So it seems that this issue is, perhap ironically, sorting itself out whether there is a 'hard' Brexit or not. The means by which such controls can be done are long established by many nations around the world:





  • US/Canada automobile industry and expanding to various other industries

  • Cigarettes in Northern Ireland

  • One of many of Trump's ICE raids:


  • UK Border Patrol raid in Cornwall. Sorry about the cookie request, but it is possible to read the article without agreeing to it.

  • This is one more tragic example from China. Pangolins. We will be lucky if these animals are still extant in a generation, and we don't deserve them anyway if they disappear.

  • You'll have to look yourself, but there are several episodes of Border Patrol UK where they are profiling and stopping people in train stations around the country. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though.


  • Russia destroys Western foods found outside of Moscow and Smolensk.


It will not be perfect. Nobody has a perfect system that I'm aware of. But it will suffice to control immigration and movement of goods to some extent and, most importantly, prevent any return of the Troubles.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

    – ouflak
    yesterday






  • 5





    @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

    – Rich
    yesterday






  • 2





    This is the best answer so far IMHO

    – marcello miorelli
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

    – marcello miorelli
    8 hours ago














18












18








18







I'm a Remainer, but have been accused of being a Hard Brexiter on some stances in this debate, so I'll take a stab. The WTO, the Repubic of Ireland, and the EU have all recently made declarations and supporting statements that they have no intention of putting up border checks on any border between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They will instead impose checks at warehouses and other centers of of commerce. The UK is adamant that they will not impose any border check on any borders between ROI and NI (already been there and done that) and currently, through the HMRC, conduct such checks (for immigration and contraband) in Northern Ireland. So it seems that this issue is, perhap ironically, sorting itself out whether there is a 'hard' Brexit or not. The means by which such controls can be done are long established by many nations around the world:





  • US/Canada automobile industry and expanding to various other industries

  • Cigarettes in Northern Ireland

  • One of many of Trump's ICE raids:


  • UK Border Patrol raid in Cornwall. Sorry about the cookie request, but it is possible to read the article without agreeing to it.

  • This is one more tragic example from China. Pangolins. We will be lucky if these animals are still extant in a generation, and we don't deserve them anyway if they disappear.

  • You'll have to look yourself, but there are several episodes of Border Patrol UK where they are profiling and stopping people in train stations around the country. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though.


  • Russia destroys Western foods found outside of Moscow and Smolensk.


It will not be perfect. Nobody has a perfect system that I'm aware of. But it will suffice to control immigration and movement of goods to some extent and, most importantly, prevent any return of the Troubles.






share|improve this answer















I'm a Remainer, but have been accused of being a Hard Brexiter on some stances in this debate, so I'll take a stab. The WTO, the Repubic of Ireland, and the EU have all recently made declarations and supporting statements that they have no intention of putting up border checks on any border between the Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They will instead impose checks at warehouses and other centers of of commerce. The UK is adamant that they will not impose any border check on any borders between ROI and NI (already been there and done that) and currently, through the HMRC, conduct such checks (for immigration and contraband) in Northern Ireland. So it seems that this issue is, perhap ironically, sorting itself out whether there is a 'hard' Brexit or not. The means by which such controls can be done are long established by many nations around the world:





  • US/Canada automobile industry and expanding to various other industries

  • Cigarettes in Northern Ireland

  • One of many of Trump's ICE raids:


  • UK Border Patrol raid in Cornwall. Sorry about the cookie request, but it is possible to read the article without agreeing to it.

  • This is one more tragic example from China. Pangolins. We will be lucky if these animals are still extant in a generation, and we don't deserve them anyway if they disappear.

  • You'll have to look yourself, but there are several episodes of Border Patrol UK where they are profiling and stopping people in train stations around the country. It was very interesting, if a bit appalling at times. It did yield results though.


  • Russia destroys Western foods found outside of Moscow and Smolensk.


It will not be perfect. Nobody has a perfect system that I'm aware of. But it will suffice to control immigration and movement of goods to some extent and, most importantly, prevent any return of the Troubles.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 14 hours ago

























answered yesterday









ouflakouflak

1,711614




1,711614








  • 3





    @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

    – ouflak
    yesterday






  • 5





    @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

    – Rich
    yesterday






  • 2





    This is the best answer so far IMHO

    – marcello miorelli
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

    – marcello miorelli
    8 hours ago














  • 3





    @ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

    – ouflak
    yesterday






  • 5





    @ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

    – Rich
    yesterday






  • 2





    This is the best answer so far IMHO

    – marcello miorelli
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

    – marcello miorelli
    8 hours ago








3




3





@ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

– ouflak
yesterday





@ErikP. I haven't heard anybody, Remainer or Brexiter, claim it would be 'no big deal'. But I have heard the WTO, EU and ROI say that they will use other means than ROI/NI checks at a border. Anyway, I've found a couple of interesting examples, one that supports your statement about US/Canada cooperation.

– ouflak
yesterday




5




5





@ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

– Rich
yesterday





@ouflak Isn't it illegal to cross the US/CA border away from a crossing point, even if you are a citizen of the country you are entering and don't have any contraband? The people on both sides of the NI border have become used to doing just this.

– Rich
yesterday




2




2





This is the best answer so far IMHO

– marcello miorelli
14 hours ago





This is the best answer so far IMHO

– marcello miorelli
14 hours ago




1




1





@marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

– Tim
12 hours ago





@marcellomiorelli Then vote it up, don't comment. You're an experienced user, you know how to use these sites.

– Tim
12 hours ago




1




1





@Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

– marcello miorelli
8 hours ago





@Tim, I am sorry, you are absolutely correct, well spotted, I just could not hold myself back... this subject is very touchy for me at the moment, but this is not the place to show that.

– marcello miorelli
8 hours ago











6














What the hard Brexiters want is for Ireland to leave the EU at the same time as the UK and negotiate a bilateral trade treaty on the UK's terms that keeps the border open. There is of course precisely zero chance of them getting it.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago
















6














What the hard Brexiters want is for Ireland to leave the EU at the same time as the UK and negotiate a bilateral trade treaty on the UK's terms that keeps the border open. There is of course precisely zero chance of them getting it.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago














6












6








6







What the hard Brexiters want is for Ireland to leave the EU at the same time as the UK and negotiate a bilateral trade treaty on the UK's terms that keeps the border open. There is of course precisely zero chance of them getting it.






share|improve this answer













What the hard Brexiters want is for Ireland to leave the EU at the same time as the UK and negotiate a bilateral trade treaty on the UK's terms that keeps the border open. There is of course precisely zero chance of them getting it.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 17 hours ago









Mike ScottMike Scott

1,14247




1,14247








  • 1





    Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago














  • 1





    Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

    – Tim
    12 hours ago








1




1





Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

– Tim
12 hours ago





Some citations that that is a) what they want and b) that there is no chance of them getting it would be appreciated.

– Tim
12 hours ago











0















This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement.




A 'hard' border would not breach the Good Friday Agreement. The full text of the text of the agreement contains no mentions of the status of the border at all.






share|improve this answer










New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 4





    This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

    – Alexei
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

    – Mike Scott
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

    – JJJ
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    @Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

    – padd13ear
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

    – DrMcCleod
    13 hours ago


















0















This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement.




A 'hard' border would not breach the Good Friday Agreement. The full text of the text of the agreement contains no mentions of the status of the border at all.






share|improve this answer










New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 4





    This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

    – Alexei
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

    – Mike Scott
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

    – JJJ
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    @Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

    – padd13ear
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

    – DrMcCleod
    13 hours ago
















0












0








0








This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement.




A 'hard' border would not breach the Good Friday Agreement. The full text of the text of the agreement contains no mentions of the status of the border at all.






share|improve this answer










New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











This "clean break" would normally require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but a hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement.




A 'hard' border would not breach the Good Friday Agreement. The full text of the text of the agreement contains no mentions of the status of the border at all.







share|improve this answer










New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago





















New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered 15 hours ago









DrMcCleodDrMcCleod

1175




1175




New contributor




DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






DrMcCleod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 4





    This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

    – Alexei
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

    – Mike Scott
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

    – JJJ
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    @Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

    – padd13ear
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

    – DrMcCleod
    13 hours ago
















  • 4





    This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

    – Alexei
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

    – Mike Scott
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

    – JJJ
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    @Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

    – padd13ear
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    @mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

    – DrMcCleod
    13 hours ago










4




4





This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

– Alexei
15 hours ago





This is a comment rather than an answer to the question.

– Alexei
15 hours ago




3




3





Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

– Mike Scott
15 hours ago





Incorrect. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK to "Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". Putting up a border to the movement of goods is moving away from close cooperation, not developing it. And also it commits to "the removal of security installations". Border posts and controls are security installations, and so installing new ones is a breach of the commitment to remove them.

– Mike Scott
15 hours ago




1




1





Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

– JJJ
15 hours ago





Please add the part in your link that supports your claim that a hard border wouldn't breach the agreement. As it stands, it's a link-only answer and (probably) a wrong one too.

– JJJ
15 hours ago




1




1





@Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

– padd13ear
14 hours ago





@Mike Scott By the same token, leaving the European Union is not "developing further the unique relationship" of the two countries as partners in the European Union. Surely any version of Brexit breaches the GFA in that sense?

– padd13ear
14 hours ago




1




1





@mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

– DrMcCleod
13 hours ago







@mikescott That is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Further, security installations in the context of NI does not refer to customs posts, but the army bases that used to dot the border.

– DrMcCleod
13 hours ago







protected by JJJ 8 hours ago



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