Use of the word “wrong” in causal learning exercises












1















I am an "event learning" consultant and practitioner and have been since 1974.



When something goes "wrong" -- an injury, explosion, loss of revenue, etc. high hazard industries are required to learn from them.



Almost all events of these sorts can be traced to people who did something "wrong," IN RETROSPECT. That is, I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically "wrong" here. I AM talking about, in retrospect, "I should not have flown my drone in those high wind conditions because it ended up crashing my drone."



I'm trying to use "retrospection" to get people to realize what they DID, and then get them to acknowledge that whatever they did was "wrong." "I flew my drone in high wind conditions, and in retrospect I acknowledge this was wrong."



There are parts of our behavior that are"wrong" in the sense that they will either harm us or other people -- even though we are not aware of them at the time.



But in using the word "wrong," I am getting a lot of push-back these days from people thinking "it's a finger pointing exercise." Far from that, we're asking individual people to look at themselves as part of an incident and SELF-ADMIT what they did that contributed to an incident.



I need to know the kinds of things I do that are "wrong," so that I can change those kinds of things.



So again, can anyone thing of a better word to use instead of:



Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"



Thank you










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  • Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

    – Lawrence
    3 hours ago











  • You might use "errant".

    – Hot Licks
    2 hours ago











  • Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

    – Jason Bassford
    1 hour ago


















1















I am an "event learning" consultant and practitioner and have been since 1974.



When something goes "wrong" -- an injury, explosion, loss of revenue, etc. high hazard industries are required to learn from them.



Almost all events of these sorts can be traced to people who did something "wrong," IN RETROSPECT. That is, I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically "wrong" here. I AM talking about, in retrospect, "I should not have flown my drone in those high wind conditions because it ended up crashing my drone."



I'm trying to use "retrospection" to get people to realize what they DID, and then get them to acknowledge that whatever they did was "wrong." "I flew my drone in high wind conditions, and in retrospect I acknowledge this was wrong."



There are parts of our behavior that are"wrong" in the sense that they will either harm us or other people -- even though we are not aware of them at the time.



But in using the word "wrong," I am getting a lot of push-back these days from people thinking "it's a finger pointing exercise." Far from that, we're asking individual people to look at themselves as part of an incident and SELF-ADMIT what they did that contributed to an incident.



I need to know the kinds of things I do that are "wrong," so that I can change those kinds of things.



So again, can anyone thing of a better word to use instead of:



Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"



Thank you










share|improve this question







New contributor




Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

    – Lawrence
    3 hours ago











  • You might use "errant".

    – Hot Licks
    2 hours ago











  • Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

    – Jason Bassford
    1 hour ago
















1












1








1


1






I am an "event learning" consultant and practitioner and have been since 1974.



When something goes "wrong" -- an injury, explosion, loss of revenue, etc. high hazard industries are required to learn from them.



Almost all events of these sorts can be traced to people who did something "wrong," IN RETROSPECT. That is, I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically "wrong" here. I AM talking about, in retrospect, "I should not have flown my drone in those high wind conditions because it ended up crashing my drone."



I'm trying to use "retrospection" to get people to realize what they DID, and then get them to acknowledge that whatever they did was "wrong." "I flew my drone in high wind conditions, and in retrospect I acknowledge this was wrong."



There are parts of our behavior that are"wrong" in the sense that they will either harm us or other people -- even though we are not aware of them at the time.



But in using the word "wrong," I am getting a lot of push-back these days from people thinking "it's a finger pointing exercise." Far from that, we're asking individual people to look at themselves as part of an incident and SELF-ADMIT what they did that contributed to an incident.



I need to know the kinds of things I do that are "wrong," so that I can change those kinds of things.



So again, can anyone thing of a better word to use instead of:



Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"



Thank you










share|improve this question







New contributor




Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












I am an "event learning" consultant and practitioner and have been since 1974.



When something goes "wrong" -- an injury, explosion, loss of revenue, etc. high hazard industries are required to learn from them.



Almost all events of these sorts can be traced to people who did something "wrong," IN RETROSPECT. That is, I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically "wrong" here. I AM talking about, in retrospect, "I should not have flown my drone in those high wind conditions because it ended up crashing my drone."



I'm trying to use "retrospection" to get people to realize what they DID, and then get them to acknowledge that whatever they did was "wrong." "I flew my drone in high wind conditions, and in retrospect I acknowledge this was wrong."



There are parts of our behavior that are"wrong" in the sense that they will either harm us or other people -- even though we are not aware of them at the time.



But in using the word "wrong," I am getting a lot of push-back these days from people thinking "it's a finger pointing exercise." Far from that, we're asking individual people to look at themselves as part of an incident and SELF-ADMIT what they did that contributed to an incident.



I need to know the kinds of things I do that are "wrong," so that I can change those kinds of things.



So again, can anyone thing of a better word to use instead of:



Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"



Thank you







word-usage






share|improve this question







New contributor




Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






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Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 4 hours ago









Bob NelmsBob Nelms

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New contributor




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New contributor





Bob Nelms is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






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Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

    – Lawrence
    3 hours ago











  • You might use "errant".

    – Hot Licks
    2 hours ago











  • Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

    – Jason Bassford
    1 hour ago





















  • Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

    – Lawrence
    3 hours ago











  • You might use "errant".

    – Hot Licks
    2 hours ago











  • Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

    – Jason Bassford
    1 hour ago



















Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

– Lawrence
3 hours ago





Regarding the clients who don’t like to call their actions wrong - how do they describe their actions?

– Lawrence
3 hours ago













You might use "errant".

– Hot Licks
2 hours ago





You might use "errant".

– Hot Licks
2 hours ago













Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

– Jason Bassford
1 hour ago







Is it purely the normative association with wrong that you're trying avoid? Does incorrectly work better? Or are you looking for something different? Alternatively, if you're not looking for an adverb but a noun, you can use postmortem.

– Jason Bassford
1 hour ago












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















0















Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"




I would simply say that something was done incorrectly:




2 a : INACCURATE, FAULTY

// an incorrect transcription
b : not true : WRONG

// incorrect answers




And shift the emphasis away from who and put it on what.




What was done incorrectly?




This doesn't imply intent, nor does it imply fault. Something can be done incorrectly without anybody being aware of what the correct method is. Perhaps they were never shown the instructions—or instructions were never written.



And if you ask it in a what form, it leaves it open for people to talk about the event, not about the person. (Anybody who claims they did it incorrectly would be taking responsibility themselves rather than feeling judged by somebody else.)



Unlike words such as error and mistake, where the implication can be that something was known but not followed and that somebody was to blame, incorrect is a purely objective statement. Although the dictionary definition associates it with wrong, it's not in the normative sense that is normally associated with it.





In corporate jargon, a common way of expressing this is not to say anything negative at all. Instead, people ask, "How can we improve things next time?" or "What opportunities for improvement can you identify?" The statement about the situation is reversed into something positive. I can see how it has some value, although I've personally felt it slightly disingenuous—a kind of politically correct way of avoiding the actual issue.






share|improve this answer


























  • Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

    – Bob Nelms
    30 mins ago



















2














I gather from your question that you are seeking for others to learn from their previous experiences, utilizing reflection methods that put situations in retrospect.



The best way to express this notion would be to put an emphasis on the lesson learnt rather than what went wrong. Recognizing the wrongdoing becomes implicit when the process and emphasis is put on growth and the lesson learnt.



It seems as though your method and process is correct, but the means of communication, packing your message in a more positive and constructive manner, (instead of just trying to find a nicer word than wrong) may be a more successful path in this situation.



"You cannot travel back in time to fix your mistakes, but you can learn from them and forgive yourself for not knowing better"
- Leon Brown






share|improve this answer
























  • Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago



















1














In engineering, we often talk about the "cause" of a failure. We might talk about the "root cause" or several "contributing causes" for an incident or a failure of some kind.



For example, in the drone example, we might say that flying the drone in high winds was the root cause of the drone crashing. (And the next step would be to implement a "corrective action" such as always checking the wind speed before flying and not flying the drone when the wind speed is above some specified value)






share|improve this answer
























  • Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











  • That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

    – The Photon
    1 hour ago



















0














There's a number of ways to say something like this (conjugate the verb for the appropriate personal pronoun and inflect the verb for the appropriate tense/mood):



I made a/the [noun]. (error, mistake)

I [verb]. (messed up, erred)

I was [adjective]. (wrong, mistaken, erroneous, guilty)

I was [phrase (prepositional) or idiom]. (at fault, to blame)

(most likely more)



You talk about "SELF-ADMIT" and acknowledging. If for example, the building burns down, saying:




I admit I left the oven on.

I acknowledge I left the oven on.




If there is any responsibility for the fire named in either of these statements, in my opinion it's only obliquely. It doesn't necessarily say "The building burned down because of me; I'm sincerely sorry." I really have no idea what's happening in society that you feel the pressure to replace "wrong" with terms that don't even directly attribute fault. The argument that "wrong" is necessarily tied to morality isn't true. 2 plus 2 equals 5 is wrong. I see no morality in this fact. Another example might be a NASA rover programmer who gets an "algorithm" wrong and makes an entire mission fail. In this case I'd argue he/she has done something wrong. Even in this example the only way morality can come into it is (arguably) reckless negligence (acting without due care).




I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically
"wrong" here.




Yes, I think most people get the idea.



A thesaurus will give similar terms you may consider. If the problem is specifically that the word you use can be associated with morality or ethics, then just simply use a word that's less associated with morality and ethics. It may be no similar word is never used in this way, but it seems certain words are less associated with morality or ethics.



Comparison on an NGram.



Google search:

moral mistake - 8,900 results

moral fault - 48,200 results

moral error - 72,000 results



I don't know what more to say. Will saying "making a mistake" allay these people's concern? Does it essentially mean the same as "being wrong" or "doing something wrong"? I personally think "mistake/n" is a good term given the description of the pushback you've experienced. Everyone makes mistakes, and if someone says you shouldn't use it because it COULD involve moral or ethical considerations, then I give up.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











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4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









0















Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"




I would simply say that something was done incorrectly:




2 a : INACCURATE, FAULTY

// an incorrect transcription
b : not true : WRONG

// incorrect answers




And shift the emphasis away from who and put it on what.




What was done incorrectly?




This doesn't imply intent, nor does it imply fault. Something can be done incorrectly without anybody being aware of what the correct method is. Perhaps they were never shown the instructions—or instructions were never written.



And if you ask it in a what form, it leaves it open for people to talk about the event, not about the person. (Anybody who claims they did it incorrectly would be taking responsibility themselves rather than feeling judged by somebody else.)



Unlike words such as error and mistake, where the implication can be that something was known but not followed and that somebody was to blame, incorrect is a purely objective statement. Although the dictionary definition associates it with wrong, it's not in the normative sense that is normally associated with it.





In corporate jargon, a common way of expressing this is not to say anything negative at all. Instead, people ask, "How can we improve things next time?" or "What opportunities for improvement can you identify?" The statement about the situation is reversed into something positive. I can see how it has some value, although I've personally felt it slightly disingenuous—a kind of politically correct way of avoiding the actual issue.






share|improve this answer


























  • Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

    – Bob Nelms
    30 mins ago
















0















Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"




I would simply say that something was done incorrectly:




2 a : INACCURATE, FAULTY

// an incorrect transcription
b : not true : WRONG

// incorrect answers




And shift the emphasis away from who and put it on what.




What was done incorrectly?




This doesn't imply intent, nor does it imply fault. Something can be done incorrectly without anybody being aware of what the correct method is. Perhaps they were never shown the instructions—or instructions were never written.



And if you ask it in a what form, it leaves it open for people to talk about the event, not about the person. (Anybody who claims they did it incorrectly would be taking responsibility themselves rather than feeling judged by somebody else.)



Unlike words such as error and mistake, where the implication can be that something was known but not followed and that somebody was to blame, incorrect is a purely objective statement. Although the dictionary definition associates it with wrong, it's not in the normative sense that is normally associated with it.





In corporate jargon, a common way of expressing this is not to say anything negative at all. Instead, people ask, "How can we improve things next time?" or "What opportunities for improvement can you identify?" The statement about the situation is reversed into something positive. I can see how it has some value, although I've personally felt it slightly disingenuous—a kind of politically correct way of avoiding the actual issue.






share|improve this answer


























  • Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

    – Bob Nelms
    30 mins ago














0












0








0








Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"




I would simply say that something was done incorrectly:




2 a : INACCURATE, FAULTY

// an incorrect transcription
b : not true : WRONG

// incorrect answers




And shift the emphasis away from who and put it on what.




What was done incorrectly?




This doesn't imply intent, nor does it imply fault. Something can be done incorrectly without anybody being aware of what the correct method is. Perhaps they were never shown the instructions—or instructions were never written.



And if you ask it in a what form, it leaves it open for people to talk about the event, not about the person. (Anybody who claims they did it incorrectly would be taking responsibility themselves rather than feeling judged by somebody else.)



Unlike words such as error and mistake, where the implication can be that something was known but not followed and that somebody was to blame, incorrect is a purely objective statement. Although the dictionary definition associates it with wrong, it's not in the normative sense that is normally associated with it.





In corporate jargon, a common way of expressing this is not to say anything negative at all. Instead, people ask, "How can we improve things next time?" or "What opportunities for improvement can you identify?" The statement about the situation is reversed into something positive. I can see how it has some value, although I've personally felt it slightly disingenuous—a kind of politically correct way of avoiding the actual issue.






share|improve this answer
















Who did what WRONG? A word that does not imply morally or ethically "bad?"




I would simply say that something was done incorrectly:




2 a : INACCURATE, FAULTY

// an incorrect transcription
b : not true : WRONG

// incorrect answers




And shift the emphasis away from who and put it on what.




What was done incorrectly?




This doesn't imply intent, nor does it imply fault. Something can be done incorrectly without anybody being aware of what the correct method is. Perhaps they were never shown the instructions—or instructions were never written.



And if you ask it in a what form, it leaves it open for people to talk about the event, not about the person. (Anybody who claims they did it incorrectly would be taking responsibility themselves rather than feeling judged by somebody else.)



Unlike words such as error and mistake, where the implication can be that something was known but not followed and that somebody was to blame, incorrect is a purely objective statement. Although the dictionary definition associates it with wrong, it's not in the normative sense that is normally associated with it.





In corporate jargon, a common way of expressing this is not to say anything negative at all. Instead, people ask, "How can we improve things next time?" or "What opportunities for improvement can you identify?" The statement about the situation is reversed into something positive. I can see how it has some value, although I've personally felt it slightly disingenuous—a kind of politically correct way of avoiding the actual issue.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 44 mins ago

























answered 53 mins ago









Jason BassfordJason Bassford

16k31941




16k31941













  • Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

    – Bob Nelms
    30 mins ago



















  • Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

    – Bob Nelms
    30 mins ago

















Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

– Bob Nelms
30 mins ago





Jason, I think you might have nailed it. INCORRECTLY! Yes. And yes, I am absolutely trying to avoid being politically correct and acknowledge truth. Thanks

– Bob Nelms
30 mins ago













2














I gather from your question that you are seeking for others to learn from their previous experiences, utilizing reflection methods that put situations in retrospect.



The best way to express this notion would be to put an emphasis on the lesson learnt rather than what went wrong. Recognizing the wrongdoing becomes implicit when the process and emphasis is put on growth and the lesson learnt.



It seems as though your method and process is correct, but the means of communication, packing your message in a more positive and constructive manner, (instead of just trying to find a nicer word than wrong) may be a more successful path in this situation.



"You cannot travel back in time to fix your mistakes, but you can learn from them and forgive yourself for not knowing better"
- Leon Brown






share|improve this answer
























  • Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago
















2














I gather from your question that you are seeking for others to learn from their previous experiences, utilizing reflection methods that put situations in retrospect.



The best way to express this notion would be to put an emphasis on the lesson learnt rather than what went wrong. Recognizing the wrongdoing becomes implicit when the process and emphasis is put on growth and the lesson learnt.



It seems as though your method and process is correct, but the means of communication, packing your message in a more positive and constructive manner, (instead of just trying to find a nicer word than wrong) may be a more successful path in this situation.



"You cannot travel back in time to fix your mistakes, but you can learn from them and forgive yourself for not knowing better"
- Leon Brown






share|improve this answer
























  • Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago














2












2








2







I gather from your question that you are seeking for others to learn from their previous experiences, utilizing reflection methods that put situations in retrospect.



The best way to express this notion would be to put an emphasis on the lesson learnt rather than what went wrong. Recognizing the wrongdoing becomes implicit when the process and emphasis is put on growth and the lesson learnt.



It seems as though your method and process is correct, but the means of communication, packing your message in a more positive and constructive manner, (instead of just trying to find a nicer word than wrong) may be a more successful path in this situation.



"You cannot travel back in time to fix your mistakes, but you can learn from them and forgive yourself for not knowing better"
- Leon Brown






share|improve this answer













I gather from your question that you are seeking for others to learn from their previous experiences, utilizing reflection methods that put situations in retrospect.



The best way to express this notion would be to put an emphasis on the lesson learnt rather than what went wrong. Recognizing the wrongdoing becomes implicit when the process and emphasis is put on growth and the lesson learnt.



It seems as though your method and process is correct, but the means of communication, packing your message in a more positive and constructive manner, (instead of just trying to find a nicer word than wrong) may be a more successful path in this situation.



"You cannot travel back in time to fix your mistakes, but you can learn from them and forgive yourself for not knowing better"
- Leon Brown







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









Jessica TiberioJessica Tiberio

928614




928614













  • Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago



















  • Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago

















Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago





Jessica, thank you. I understand what you are saying. I've heard it many times before. BUT substantive personal change does not occur painlessly. Everything that goes "wrong" in a system created by humans can be traced back to humans. In my circles, however, there are huge attempts to "blame" all our problems on something besides "ourselves." People need to know where their behavior was "wrong." In my world, with the people I deal with, wrongness is usually taken as "bad, laughty, punishable, culpable, etc." I'm looking for another word without those associations.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago











1














In engineering, we often talk about the "cause" of a failure. We might talk about the "root cause" or several "contributing causes" for an incident or a failure of some kind.



For example, in the drone example, we might say that flying the drone in high winds was the root cause of the drone crashing. (And the next step would be to implement a "corrective action" such as always checking the wind speed before flying and not flying the drone when the wind speed is above some specified value)






share|improve this answer
























  • Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











  • That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

    – The Photon
    1 hour ago
















1














In engineering, we often talk about the "cause" of a failure. We might talk about the "root cause" or several "contributing causes" for an incident or a failure of some kind.



For example, in the drone example, we might say that flying the drone in high winds was the root cause of the drone crashing. (And the next step would be to implement a "corrective action" such as always checking the wind speed before flying and not flying the drone when the wind speed is above some specified value)






share|improve this answer
























  • Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











  • That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

    – The Photon
    1 hour ago














1












1








1







In engineering, we often talk about the "cause" of a failure. We might talk about the "root cause" or several "contributing causes" for an incident or a failure of some kind.



For example, in the drone example, we might say that flying the drone in high winds was the root cause of the drone crashing. (And the next step would be to implement a "corrective action" such as always checking the wind speed before flying and not flying the drone when the wind speed is above some specified value)






share|improve this answer













In engineering, we often talk about the "cause" of a failure. We might talk about the "root cause" or several "contributing causes" for an incident or a failure of some kind.



For example, in the drone example, we might say that flying the drone in high winds was the root cause of the drone crashing. (And the next step would be to implement a "corrective action" such as always checking the wind speed before flying and not flying the drone when the wind speed is above some specified value)







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









The PhotonThe Photon

2,1391811




2,1391811













  • Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











  • That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

    – The Photon
    1 hour ago



















  • Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago











  • That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

    – The Photon
    1 hour ago

















Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago





Yes, Photon. I am an engineer and understand what you are saying. I have been where you are, but have gone much deeper. If I'm the one that flew the drone in high winds, and I don't intentionally dwell on that fact, even dig a little deeper about myself, then "the way I am" will continue to cause problems in the future. But until I "see myself" as part of the problem, by admitting "wrongness," I'll never be able or even be inclined to dig deeper into myself. So getting people to see their "wrongness" is, in my opinion, vital for making our highly hazardous businesses more safe.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago













That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

– The Photon
1 hour ago





That's the point of the corrective action. But if you really want to force them to admit their own faults, you'll just have to accept that many of them won't like it. Nothing upsets people more than criticism that they themselves know is valid.

– The Photon
1 hour ago











0














There's a number of ways to say something like this (conjugate the verb for the appropriate personal pronoun and inflect the verb for the appropriate tense/mood):



I made a/the [noun]. (error, mistake)

I [verb]. (messed up, erred)

I was [adjective]. (wrong, mistaken, erroneous, guilty)

I was [phrase (prepositional) or idiom]. (at fault, to blame)

(most likely more)



You talk about "SELF-ADMIT" and acknowledging. If for example, the building burns down, saying:




I admit I left the oven on.

I acknowledge I left the oven on.




If there is any responsibility for the fire named in either of these statements, in my opinion it's only obliquely. It doesn't necessarily say "The building burned down because of me; I'm sincerely sorry." I really have no idea what's happening in society that you feel the pressure to replace "wrong" with terms that don't even directly attribute fault. The argument that "wrong" is necessarily tied to morality isn't true. 2 plus 2 equals 5 is wrong. I see no morality in this fact. Another example might be a NASA rover programmer who gets an "algorithm" wrong and makes an entire mission fail. In this case I'd argue he/she has done something wrong. Even in this example the only way morality can come into it is (arguably) reckless negligence (acting without due care).




I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically
"wrong" here.




Yes, I think most people get the idea.



A thesaurus will give similar terms you may consider. If the problem is specifically that the word you use can be associated with morality or ethics, then just simply use a word that's less associated with morality and ethics. It may be no similar word is never used in this way, but it seems certain words are less associated with morality or ethics.



Comparison on an NGram.



Google search:

moral mistake - 8,900 results

moral fault - 48,200 results

moral error - 72,000 results



I don't know what more to say. Will saying "making a mistake" allay these people's concern? Does it essentially mean the same as "being wrong" or "doing something wrong"? I personally think "mistake/n" is a good term given the description of the pushback you've experienced. Everyone makes mistakes, and if someone says you shouldn't use it because it COULD involve moral or ethical considerations, then I give up.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago
















0














There's a number of ways to say something like this (conjugate the verb for the appropriate personal pronoun and inflect the verb for the appropriate tense/mood):



I made a/the [noun]. (error, mistake)

I [verb]. (messed up, erred)

I was [adjective]. (wrong, mistaken, erroneous, guilty)

I was [phrase (prepositional) or idiom]. (at fault, to blame)

(most likely more)



You talk about "SELF-ADMIT" and acknowledging. If for example, the building burns down, saying:




I admit I left the oven on.

I acknowledge I left the oven on.




If there is any responsibility for the fire named in either of these statements, in my opinion it's only obliquely. It doesn't necessarily say "The building burned down because of me; I'm sincerely sorry." I really have no idea what's happening in society that you feel the pressure to replace "wrong" with terms that don't even directly attribute fault. The argument that "wrong" is necessarily tied to morality isn't true. 2 plus 2 equals 5 is wrong. I see no morality in this fact. Another example might be a NASA rover programmer who gets an "algorithm" wrong and makes an entire mission fail. In this case I'd argue he/she has done something wrong. Even in this example the only way morality can come into it is (arguably) reckless negligence (acting without due care).




I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically
"wrong" here.




Yes, I think most people get the idea.



A thesaurus will give similar terms you may consider. If the problem is specifically that the word you use can be associated with morality or ethics, then just simply use a word that's less associated with morality and ethics. It may be no similar word is never used in this way, but it seems certain words are less associated with morality or ethics.



Comparison on an NGram.



Google search:

moral mistake - 8,900 results

moral fault - 48,200 results

moral error - 72,000 results



I don't know what more to say. Will saying "making a mistake" allay these people's concern? Does it essentially mean the same as "being wrong" or "doing something wrong"? I personally think "mistake/n" is a good term given the description of the pushback you've experienced. Everyone makes mistakes, and if someone says you shouldn't use it because it COULD involve moral or ethical considerations, then I give up.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago














0












0








0







There's a number of ways to say something like this (conjugate the verb for the appropriate personal pronoun and inflect the verb for the appropriate tense/mood):



I made a/the [noun]. (error, mistake)

I [verb]. (messed up, erred)

I was [adjective]. (wrong, mistaken, erroneous, guilty)

I was [phrase (prepositional) or idiom]. (at fault, to blame)

(most likely more)



You talk about "SELF-ADMIT" and acknowledging. If for example, the building burns down, saying:




I admit I left the oven on.

I acknowledge I left the oven on.




If there is any responsibility for the fire named in either of these statements, in my opinion it's only obliquely. It doesn't necessarily say "The building burned down because of me; I'm sincerely sorry." I really have no idea what's happening in society that you feel the pressure to replace "wrong" with terms that don't even directly attribute fault. The argument that "wrong" is necessarily tied to morality isn't true. 2 plus 2 equals 5 is wrong. I see no morality in this fact. Another example might be a NASA rover programmer who gets an "algorithm" wrong and makes an entire mission fail. In this case I'd argue he/she has done something wrong. Even in this example the only way morality can come into it is (arguably) reckless negligence (acting without due care).




I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically
"wrong" here.




Yes, I think most people get the idea.



A thesaurus will give similar terms you may consider. If the problem is specifically that the word you use can be associated with morality or ethics, then just simply use a word that's less associated with morality and ethics. It may be no similar word is never used in this way, but it seems certain words are less associated with morality or ethics.



Comparison on an NGram.



Google search:

moral mistake - 8,900 results

moral fault - 48,200 results

moral error - 72,000 results



I don't know what more to say. Will saying "making a mistake" allay these people's concern? Does it essentially mean the same as "being wrong" or "doing something wrong"? I personally think "mistake/n" is a good term given the description of the pushback you've experienced. Everyone makes mistakes, and if someone says you shouldn't use it because it COULD involve moral or ethical considerations, then I give up.






share|improve this answer















There's a number of ways to say something like this (conjugate the verb for the appropriate personal pronoun and inflect the verb for the appropriate tense/mood):



I made a/the [noun]. (error, mistake)

I [verb]. (messed up, erred)

I was [adjective]. (wrong, mistaken, erroneous, guilty)

I was [phrase (prepositional) or idiom]. (at fault, to blame)

(most likely more)



You talk about "SELF-ADMIT" and acknowledging. If for example, the building burns down, saying:




I admit I left the oven on.

I acknowledge I left the oven on.




If there is any responsibility for the fire named in either of these statements, in my opinion it's only obliquely. It doesn't necessarily say "The building burned down because of me; I'm sincerely sorry." I really have no idea what's happening in society that you feel the pressure to replace "wrong" with terms that don't even directly attribute fault. The argument that "wrong" is necessarily tied to morality isn't true. 2 plus 2 equals 5 is wrong. I see no morality in this fact. Another example might be a NASA rover programmer who gets an "algorithm" wrong and makes an entire mission fail. In this case I'd argue he/she has done something wrong. Even in this example the only way morality can come into it is (arguably) reckless negligence (acting without due care).




I'm NOT talking about intentional harm, or morally or ethically
"wrong" here.




Yes, I think most people get the idea.



A thesaurus will give similar terms you may consider. If the problem is specifically that the word you use can be associated with morality or ethics, then just simply use a word that's less associated with morality and ethics. It may be no similar word is never used in this way, but it seems certain words are less associated with morality or ethics.



Comparison on an NGram.



Google search:

moral mistake - 8,900 results

moral fault - 48,200 results

moral error - 72,000 results



I don't know what more to say. Will saying "making a mistake" allay these people's concern? Does it essentially mean the same as "being wrong" or "doing something wrong"? I personally think "mistake/n" is a good term given the description of the pushback you've experienced. Everyone makes mistakes, and if someone says you shouldn't use it because it COULD involve moral or ethical considerations, then I give up.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 3 hours ago

























answered 3 hours ago









ZebrafishZebrafish

9,05831333




9,05831333













  • Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago



















  • Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

    – Bob Nelms
    1 hour ago

















Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago





Thank you Zebrafish. One of the definitions of "wrong" is: unjust, dishonest, or immoral. That's where the problem is coming from. However, I do like your word "mistake," So I suppose I could ask people, after an unfortunate event, "what mistakes did you make that contributed to this event?" I like it! THANKS.

– Bob Nelms
1 hour ago










Bob Nelms is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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